Foreign [Music] [Music] Er white and I've spent the majority of My life working in the outdoors as a Soldier Outdoorsman and guide many years Ago I came to a crossroad in my military Career I felt like I was at the point Where I was no longer able to learn About survival from the military so I Searched and I watched as many new shows Popped up like Dual Survival Survivorman And others shows that partnered seasoned Soldiers with primitive living Instructors I watched experienced Soldiers who had amazing skills with Tools fall short without them and I had To look deep within myself and ask why So realizing that something was missing In my training I then formulated a plan I set out to find people with these Skills in my area to find out who they Were where they come from who taught Them and more importantly how could I Learn and master these skills for myself This journey has led me to a place where I have had the privilege of teaching These things that I love to others Skills that now range from Advanced Navigation to primitive fire this is my Journey to primitive this is Yeah it's a story that has never really Been about me Another friend that I've developed along
My journey to primitive is Dave Westcott This is Dave westcott's story [Music] Okay I'm Dave Westcott I've been Teaching primitive skills for well since About 1970s when I started with Larry Olsen and I've just made a living out of It since I started doing it so it's been My bread and butter for a long long time To talk for a number of different Universities and talk skills there that Range from primitive skills to the most Modern skills but but the privilege Skills have always been my my fallback Area of expertise and then right now of Course my passion is classic camping so I've moved up a little bit in the Evolutionary ladder just because I'm Getting older and I like it nice and Soft and comfortable now you know but The Primitive skills have always been my First love What is classic camping classic camping Are the skills that we would have done Around the turn of the century when when People were well they said in a period From about 1890 to 1930 there was more People camping per capita than any other Time before since everybody was camping It was the thing to do and so there was A huge amount of equipment of skills of Writing being done of people being out On the land during that period of time And and it was popular up until about
The 1950s and then in the 1950s and 60s Because so many people were still Camping that they were creating impacts And that's when we came up with with This idea of minimum impact and Lightweight gear and backpacking and so Backpacking essentially knocked camping Off off of the top spot and so people Started doing backpacking instead of Camping and then and so we've lost a lot Of those skills that were part of Camping and a lot of some of them needed To be because of the impacts they Created but for the most part those Skills are still viable uh alternative To Modern camping and the comfort that You can that you can have in a classic Style is Much I mean you can take anybody who's a Modern Backpacker and put them in touch With what we're doing here and they just Go how come we don't camp this way so That primitive skills are There's an argument amongst the the Academics as to whether the word Primitive is appropriate or not you know For a long time in their literature Primitive meant something that was uh That was crude and uh Um was uh it was a pejorative it was Something that wasn't a a compliment to Somebody to say they were primitive and So they'll put it down to say that we Shouldn't use it our take on the subject
Is the fact that it's not has nothing to Do with crudeness has nothing to do with With marginalizing people it has to do With the idea that primitive skills are First skills and these first skills are The ones that are the things that are Common to all human beings regardless of Their ethnic backgrounds or cultures Um everybody had a relative at some Point in time that came out of the Stone Age and so these first skills I think Are are the thing that bring us together As opposed to things that divide us up Right now we have this whole push on Diversity and yes diversity is important For our for evolution but when it starts To divide our society then I think it's Got a little bit too far so we need to Look at things that bring us together And create this commonality between us And that that is Stone Age culture It's really interesting to watch how People come into the the field of Primitive skills because People will discover what we're doing at Rapid stick and Real well feel like they're the only Ones that have been doing it you know It's just like I've been doing this in My backyard and my new relatives all Think that I'm crazy I've got stinky Hides and sticks all over my backyard And everybody thinks I'm nuts and when I Discovered you guys it was like I found
A family you know I thought I was the Only one weirdo out there and all of a Sudden they find that there's a whole Lot of weirdos out there and so Um the the topic and the ability to Access the information is becoming more Broad-based than it ever has lots a lot Of it because of TV right now Um but survival to me has been co-opted You know survival and primitive skills To me used to be synonymous Um that's how I came into the field was The survival skills I learned were Primitive Outdoor Living skills that Came from Larry Olsen's uh outdoor Survival book So that's I've always connected them That way now survival is so heavily gear Oriented and stuff oriented and Gadget Oriented that Um it's uh it's kind of gone in a Different direction so you see all these Survival experts on TV right now who Once they lose their their feral Rod Their basket case they have no backups At all because they have no gear anymore And so People I think are realizing that that These base skills these basic skills are More important than this stuff and so I Think we're seeing this Resurgence of Interest in people coming back and Saying I want to learn those things yeah The stuff is nice and it's a luxury and
It makes me that much more comfortable But what if if I know the other stuff Then mentally I can be a lot more Comfortable because I can relax and I Can always know I can solve my problems By being able to improvise the stuff I Need from the resources that are around Me so for people to find and access this Information it's probably more available Than it's ever been I mean when I Started in the 70s it was very limited Then when we started rabbit stick in 1988 our goal was to bring together Those instructors that we're teaching Across the country to share information And talk one another and that was the First effort that was ever done that Because up until then it was kind of Like everybody was very protective of Their own little their Niche you know They didn't want anybody else to steal Their stuff and we kind of changed that Tide to where now that now stuff is Widely shared the only thing I don't Like about that is the sharing has Gotten to the point now to where people Are Sharing what they're thinking they're Kind of claiming this their original Idea and and all of a sudden we have Instant experts online that aren't Citing their sources and I I mock at That I think that if you get information That comes from some place every
Technology has an evolution that has a Has a genealogy and you need to decide Where you get that information from as Opposed to just all of a sudden I just Got this out of the air type of stuff I Taught myself I hear that all the time So you know there's access to it it's Available everywhere there's over 30 of These primitive skills Gatherings now That have adapted what we've started Here and they're available all over the Country at all different times of year So you could pretty much go on a circuit Of following the Primitive skills Trail And just go from Gathering to Gathering If you wanted to Larry Olsen to me is is the Nexus of Where a lot of this interest in Primitive skills came from he's the guy That made it Accessible in other words the Information was there but it was there In ethnographic reports and those sorts Of things and so it was very very tough For The average person to access the Information that was that was needed in Order to say Okay I want to learn how to Do Stone working I want to learn how to Build fires from scratch I want to learn How to make traps and snares I want to Learn all these skills that have an Application to where I live and Larry is
The one that took him out of the out of The ethnographic record and said here is How you do these skills and made it Accessible to people so when outdoor Survival skills came out in the late 1960s it became an instant hit because Well the timing is really good too Because you had a huge movement in the Counterculture the holders catalog was Out and so his books spread rapidly Amongst people who were looking for Alternative Lifestyles at the same time As people were looking for different Kinds well it was it was It became an avocational Pursuit for a Lot of people and a lifestyle for some People and so to me that started not all And if you go back and you look at the Histories of of who's adopted these Kinds of Technologies as a as a teaching Paradigm Um Larry is connected to pretty much Everybody you can't deny that you know There are Pockets that have that have Evolved on their own and come in touch With Larry and then gone off on their Own again and and don't necessarily Recognize him as a source but you know To me without him having done what he Did Those who have developed their own Programs independently I don't think the Momentum would have been there for the People to to be attracted to them does
That make sense so I think he influenced A whole lot of what was going on and Then if you look at the early rabbit Sticks back in the 70s you know there Was people you know Our history of of what's going on here Gets skewed because of the fact that Most interviewing that's going on right Now is going on in the west and so There's a western connection there's a Hub out here of people who have worked Together for a long time whereas if you Look to the east I mean there's a whole Tom Brown thing out there that with Thousands of people coming through that School and hundreds of schools popping Up from that school that a lot of times Don't get recognized in the history and I think they should but they don't get Recognized as much I think because of The fact that a lot of the of the Accidents going on right now is going on In the west and so but if you once again If you look in the East what's going on There's a huge Impetusive information that's out there Too so I met Larry Olsen uh I was way into a native American Traditions in my teens and and uh all The way up into college and I mean I was I was 35 years old before I finally Figured out I was never going to be an Indian and uh So
Um I was in college and I had seen his book I have two two things came about I'd Seen his book and my friend of my Parents gave me a copy of ishi which hit Me about the same time and if you look At the two books uh Larry's Photos are almost a white man Reproduction of ishi photos a lot of the Times and so once again he made it Accessible for white people to connect To that idea Um And so I got had those two books and was Going to college and realized that I was At the same school that Larry Olsen was Teaching at and we ran into each other Just by having stance in a hallway one Day and got to talking and he sent me Down to his office and I spent three Hours in his office and convinced me That that's what I was going to do for The rest of my life and I that's what I've been doing for the rest of my life Much to the Chagrin of my wife you know We've been married we've been married Two months I think when I met Larry and Then I was out on the 30-day course After we'd been married for two months So And this and it hasn't stopped so Fortunately she's a very patient woman And she's gotten used to it so yeah so That's it took a lot more people than
Myself to make this all happen Uh I didn't invent all the skills I Didn't master all the skills Dave Holliday could walk circles around me With whatever with respect to the skills But they took their cue from me in the Beginning And and I don't know how they would have Done that or it probably would have come Along some way but somehow everybody Glommed onto me and I become the world Expert on it that's the way the TV Looked at it anyway And but I never felt that way I knew That there were people that were just as Good or better and I gathered them about Me as best I could and they helped me Through a lot of things and they kind of Counseled me in many ways in working With youth And they taught me the skills that they Were learning over and above what I Could do And it was just a wonderful existence I Had some of the greatest friends in the World Zeke Sanchez came in early Uh they had it we had a program called Youth leadership 480. Which was uh Helping troubled youth To Get back into school at BYU They had a policy that if you flunked
Out you had to wait two years before you Could reapply or you need to go on a Mission and come back and apply or go in The military for two years and then come Back and apply They wanted to shorten that two-year Time period so they asked me to take Them out for a half a semester And put them through this experience That I've been working with And if if that got them back in and then They would re-enroll them into BYU Immediately the next semester See how they did That was widely accepted and very Successful And that would be to this day except I Don't think they're doing it there now Since I left Then as other people came through the Program and I'd find one or two in every Almost every group that I could hire and Then train them and they could do just As good as anyone else There's a list of several hundreds which I couldn't even begin to quote here Some of the notables that have gone Ahead and done things with Dave Westcott For one Who took over the rabbit Stick Run to Move from me uh After I'd Didn't have time to run it anymore And he's turned it into an international
Annual event that is very successful They had over 600 and some students There this past year Uh And then he started the winter count So they'd have an additional one for the Winter time it's been widely successful Wildly successful so that's how I met Him and then I just I I was like a sponge I mean I Was I was probably obnoxious to the Point where I just sucked everything I Could get out of him and everybody else That was affiliated with the programs to Where I Advanced pretty rapidly in the in the Skill set and so I started being his TA In teaching his classes and then when he Was injured in a car wreck uh it was Probably about 73 I think Um He was out of commission and his classes Were still going on so I stepped in and So I was the the Teacher for the courses that he had been Teaching so so I learned a lot really Really fast and then he was phasing out Of the field programs and so I was Working with Doug Nelson running the 30-day survival programs while I was Running to youth programs Doug was Running the university programs and then Um That I phased out of these programs in
The work went to work with Doug in the In the longer programs and so For four years I was pretty much in the Field non-stop I mean constantly using These skills and living these skills so It was It became part of me and you know Larry Was the guy that got me started yeah Boss better known as Boulder outdoor Survival School came out of the idea That the programs that we ran were at BYU that's where Larry was teaching and BYU decided they didn't want to run Those programs anymore so Doug Nelson Who was running him at the time he and I Were students together in fact we did Our our first student course together in Uh 1971. I did my first course and we did That together and um So he was teaching on campus when they When they decided not to run those Programs and so he asked them if he Could start doing them commercially well That's what he did he Incorporated it And started it I think it was 1977. it Was when he Incorporated the company and Uh Ran it as a commercial Venture and then In 80 Probably about 84. I came in and started Working with him in the Summers and Helping him out with the programs and Then in 80 well probably 83 I started
Working in the A4 85 I bought him out he Had been doing it long enough to where He was ready to move on and and I I Wanted to do something I I'd left my College position and so I was looking For something to do as a venture a Personal Venture and so I took it over And ran it from 80 85 to 97 and um So it it developed that way and it was a It was a tough transition because it Came out of a university setting and Even though Doug was running it Commercially the majority of his Students were still coming from the University that's what was his feeder Source but I came on all of a sudden That was gone and so we basically had a Name and an old Chevy truck and had to Start from scratch I mean we rebuilt it From the ground up And one of the reasons that I think we Became we had we had a lot of notoriety Then and I think we became our Credibility was built was because of the Fact that we were able to attract very Very good people to make the program run I mean we had we had a dozen or so very Dedicated stats that were highly Talented that made our programs really Really working without them we would we Never would have succeeded and one of The things that that I valued was this Idea that it would be very easy for a Company as small as ours and this Titan
Is ours to become very inbred And so I required the student the staff To actually go out and take skills Courses from other people and learn new Skills and bring those back and if they Wanted to advance in the company that's How they could do it was to was to Advance their own expertise And so that's one reason we started Rapid stick was rather than sending my Staff out all over the country we would Bring the instructors together which Would benefit them and would benefit my Staff having access to them at the same Time Matt just Matt Graham uh same thing um I Think just showed up in Boulder And um I I'm not sure if he was scheduled to take Course or if he just showed up in Boulder and I think he just showed up in Boulder When I was uh I was in my early early 20s I um I'd been doing the Primitive skills for About five five six years and I saw in The back of this this magazine there was An ad for said Boulder outdoor survival School had this Arrow going through it And I was like wow there's actually People doing this stuff you know it said Primitive Stone Age Technologies Um so I was like I called up the number
And uh and this gentleman Dave West Scott answers the phone And right off the bat I'm just like I Didn't even introduce myself I just like Can I work for you I just told like Stalker dweeb you know and he's like wow Dude tell me a little bit about yourself So we started chatting for a while and Uh He's like yeah he's like you gotta take A course first and at the time like I Was literally just a Wandering Hunter-gatherer I had no money And I told him that I was like I really Just don't I don't have the fun stuff For the course right now This this was quite some time ago and He's like well he's like come on over And see what we can do So I got this bike from a thrift store Loaded up tied up the blanket to the Front it'd be sacked to the back and Paddle or pedaled over from California And when I got to the Utah lands I just I fell in love with the landscape And then I met Dave Westcott We had a great connection right away And I ended up working there that summer I was involved with eight courses Yeah Pretty much been teaching in this Landscape ever since And um Hung around long enough to where uh
Finally kind of got absorbed in the Program I think we required him if I'm Not mistaken we require all of our all Of our staff to take a course first and That's not to make money off them as Much as it is that you can't teach those Courses unless you've been through those Experiences yourself So to give him field experience just to Know what the courses are all about we Think he ended up taking a course with Us and then Worked a few courses I remember he was On one of our tougher courses it was a 14-day course that we ran that was Really really they used to call it the Rock bite of what was it was a Hunter-gatherer courses I think and so He and Brett Crystal and my son Ron uh You know would one of those courses they Were they were they were tough courses And so we had some very healthy people Running those things and that was one of Them so and uh I saw a truck go by and I Recognized the truck because it was Boulder outdoor survival schools old Chevy And uh Dave Westcott was driving it And he said hi and he said he heard That uh I could do a hand drill fire And nobody was doing them in those days And I guess he got a call from Larry Dean Olsen that there was a kid
Someplace on you know in southern Utah That could do a hand drill fire and I Was him and that's what's gotten I saw Each other and we'd heard each other's Names a lot because he was in the BYU Programs And had been running them for a while With Doug Nelson and running courses Right about the same time I came in he Was moving on David I've been Moving if Parallel paths for a long time David Holliday and I've been married and Married you're the freudians yeah David Holliday and I've been moving in Parallel paths for for years we had been Moving parallel pass for years and so When I left the survival programs I went To work for Outward Bound for a couple Years and he came into the programs After after I had left and so I kept Hearing Um you know do you know David Holly well It's like this you know everybody says Do you know David Holliday well yeah of Course that's everybody's claim of Fame Is always the way David Holliday so uh Everybody's favorite primitive skills Person so Um So I had heard about him and you know Everybody says you need to meet him you Guys are the same and yada yada yada so
It wasn't until I came back and took Over boss about 1980 Well I took it over in 85. So I think I met him in the summer of 80s Probably 87 I think was when we finally Ran into each other And um It was just interesting connection to me There was no doubt about it and so he Was teaching at Tucson public schools And coming up to live on his property at Boulder during the Summers with his son And uh And so that's why we had never met was Because his travels back and forth and My my travels to Boulder that uh just Didn't ever Jive until that particular Time and so Um We finally met and uh It was like we had this long Conversation about Um Uh Who really knew what to do you know who Walked the walking who talked to talk And who you know the difference between The two and um so we were having this Big long conversation about who could do Skills and just could talk about them And not do them and so then we got into This discussion about hand drills and They said I could do a hand drill and I
Said really he said yeah so he started Doing a hand drill and well It's like doing it on TV you know if Somebody's filming you it's never going To work you're always going to run out Of breath or things aren't going to work Quite right and so you're always Fumbling around whenever you do you can Do it 100 times by yourself and then When you when you have to really put on A show that so that doesn't work and so It wasn't working And um I didn't know as much about David At the time but he's probably the most Bull headed and stubborn person I've Ever known in my entire life I mean he Says he's going to do it he'll do it Which makes him very dependable that way Um So anyway Um so he was doing a hand drill my wife Was there and he finally had done it Long enough to where he developed Blisters on the paws of his hands about The size of silver dollars and And we've been talking a lot about Ingenuous people who talk a lot about What they know but they really can't do Anything and I didn't know who he was Referring to but I said yeah me too I Hate hypocrisy also And so then after a long you know Introduction to his wife and me uh You know I and him and we we talk about
How we've never met each other much but We hurt each other a lot I was living With hardly any clothes on I had a son Who was four I'd been making hand drill Fires All Summer Long my fire board was Nothing but holes and my muscles were Strong and I was ready to show off and So I proceeded to fail At making a hand drill fire on a clear Day For about 20 or 30 tries And I don't know how much time it took Because I was so focused but it began to Look different looks like it was getting Darker and finally Paula Dave's wife Paula Wescott says you know we believe You can do a fire we can tell by looking At your hand drill set that you've made A lot of fires but we've got to go And they both kind of looked at me with Pity and took off And I think one of them popped in the Process and got on my wife and and we Finally just said that's nice David this I believe you you know you can stop now And no no no I can do it and so we we Finally gave up and went back to town Which was probably about seven miles From his house and my son and I were so You know used to going to bed when the Sun goes down this was probably nine O'clock at night in the summertime right So it's still light a little bit but I Was so exhausted and I had such huge
Blisters on both hands That I grabbed I looked at that hand Drill and I looked at that hearth fire Board I said I wonder why this didn't Work and I was so discouraged that I Threw it about 15 feet and I remember it Landing and hitting in the middle of a Uh sumac Bush and then dropping into the Sand and I remember laying down And sleeping next to the fire we already Had a fire going because I think Juan Was already cooking himself some food my Four-year-old Well I fall asleep And unlike my normal night I do not wake Up again and when I wake up in the Morning my face is in the sand I'm Breathing in sand and I'm right where I Laid down and the first thing I see 15 Feet away is that hand drill set and That Hearth and I'm thinking to myself I Wonder why that didn't work so I just Walked over there and grabbed it and I Had great big blisters but I powered Down on that thing Popped my blisters as I was going and I Made a spark on the first time down I thought I wonder why that didn't Happen while they were watching So then I wake my son up Make an Apache match or a fire match a Fire Bund a fire carrying match about This long Put my son on my shoulders and I walk up
Over that Mesa right there And I get up on the flats and I walk Across another taller Mesa So I get up on the flats and go up on The the higher Mesa drop in and I save About three miles to get to Boulder Seven miles on the road or seven and a Half from here but it's about three Miles and something through there And I walk to Dave westcott's trailer And by then it's seven in the morning so I must have got up pretty early And I knock on his door and then I blow On my Apache match I called him Apache Match I know it started that I don't Know if that's accurate to anybody Else's history but I just like the way That sounds and I like the way the Patches make them but Or made them And I blow on that thing and it comes on To Flame right there on his porch at the Boss trailer when it used to be by the Museum in Boulder Utah And he is in his boxer shorts he looks At the flame And he goes oh I'll be right there and He goes and gets his clothes on comes Back out and he says show us how you do The fire next morning I got knocked on The door here's David Holliday standing On my doorstep with a Tinder bundle Going see that I can do it he we had Done it after we left and walked to town
The next morning to show me that he Could actually do a handrail fire which In today's parlors is no big deal Because hand drill fires are pervasive Everybody's doing them you know it's Like it's like no big thing well in 1988 When we did our first rabbit stick the Only person doing hand drills in the Country that I knew of was Jim Riggs and So when when we did the first rabbit Stick there was 48 instructors and two Students well we sat around all we did Was we would we'd focus on a topic then We would get tired of that we can move To the next one well Jim Riggs was the Man on handrail fires So we go over to the museum to the to The replica of or some rooms that they'd Made back in the 70s and we sit down in Front of there and my blisters are Healed again or at least sealed to the Full of water and I go down that spindle First try and it pops that blister and Squirts that white blood cell liquid all Over the place I think it even squirts a Couple people around me They claim they don't remember that I Remember it being very uncomfortable And I go down the spindle Just a few times and I got a spark and I Said that's how you do it and so Years later I was working for boss and He was introducing me to a class and he Said
Uh Dave Holliday is going to be your Instructor you're going to like him it's Your 20 28 day trip and you're gonna Like this guy and it's the first time I Actually sit heard him say something Positive about me because he didn't say Negative or positive he just didn't talk Much so I was like wow he likes me and Then he said And what impresses me most isn't that he Can do Andrew fires it's the fact that He'd walk a long ways to keep his word And that was the first like big Compliment he ever made to me that was The beginning of a great working Relationship and um Unfortunately Jim passed away just a Couple weeks ago but he was the one that Kind of got everybody started on that Thing well then then it just spread like Wildfire to where now uh it's just a Common thing and that's that has to do With a lot of these skills I mean a lot Of these skills we struggled with them For years trying to figure out how to do It but now there are people who are Learning them in a matter of weeks who Are heads and shoulders above what my Skill level is just because there are People who have developed those skills To the point to where they're standing On their shoulders now and saying okay The level of skill that they have now it
Could they could access much faster than We ever could just because not because Necessarily the information but because Of the level of instruction is available Now So David was one of those guys and so he Was doing stuff that I had never seen Before and and so we brought him in to Be one of our lead instructors at boss When I Own Boss and uh it's just been Kind of one of those things ever since We've traveled all over together we've Done programs together we've worked on Different projects together we've just Been very good friends ever since And I became senior skills instructor And Senior instructor for outdoor Survival skill School Boulder outdoor Survival skill school for uh about the Next 18 years so that was the beginning Of a really good working relationship With I think one of the best Men I've ever met Regardless of what anybody else in the Whole wide world might know about him or Think about him my relationship with him Is wonderful and I think most people That know him agree that he's a man of Integrity and that he's uh Really good Craftsman really good at Anything he decides to do and very Honest and that's what I like about him [Music] [Music]
Um [Music] [Music] Foreign [Music] Thank you
